Building Long-term Partnerships: Strategies and Perspectives

Tom Leonard

I'm Tom Leonard. I'm the host of the Gamers Change Lives podcast, where we talk about how esports can create jobs anywhere in the world. Play games, create jobs, change lives. In season one, we talked about jobs. In season two, we talked about sponsorship. We talked about investment. We called it “Follow The Money”. And here in Season Three, we're talking more about esports as a business, esports 101. Today's guest is Nimish Raut from India. He's the global head of e-sports partnerships and special projects at Nodwin Gaming. He's also had experience in some of the really top esports and sponsorship organizations around the world. Fanatic, Riot Games and Red Bull. Welcome, Nimish.

FnaticNemo

Good evening. How are you? Thank you for having me here.

Tom Leonard

So where are you speaking to us from?

FnaticNemo

I'm currently in a small town in India called Goa. I was initially based in the financial capital Mumbai, but around two years back I decided that I needed a good work-life balance and because I work in esports, I had the opportunity to work from anywhere. So I decided to work from a small town and whenever I have work, I travel around the world but I am back home in an environment where I can possibly be a little bit more creative, give my busy life a break that is always required in an industry like esports and just as I said, just always be ready for the next big challenge.

Tom Leonard

Great! We're going to be talking a lot about sponsorship here and partnerships, which are kind of the lifeblood of esports out there. But first, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? How did you end up working in esports?

FnaticNemo

It's a very interesting story actually. My first ever business when I was probably like maybe nine years old, you know, I was very lucky that my father used to travel around the world and he used to buy me all these different consoles, including the Atari and the Nintendo and the beta five. And at one point I had, I think around, maybe around eight or 10 different consoles, mostly eight bit and 16 bit video games. And a lot of my friends used to borrow them over the weekend to play. And then I had another friend of mine who actually was a collector of eight bit cassettes. And he had everything from Zelda to Felix the Cat, to the NBA, to Bugs Bunny on the cassettes. And I was like, “Hey, listen! People are borrowing this from me on weekends, these are my friends, but it's kind of unfair that I don't get anything in return.” So the nine-year-old me made a small little poster and I started saying that, “Hey, I actually give this on rent. And at that time I would charge 20 rupees, which would probably be like 10 cents for the whole day. And that was my first real association with video games and the business of video games. And it actually grew it, it grew to a point where as a nine-year-old kid, I was making anything between close to $70 to $80 a month. And that's a lot of money in Indian rupees back in the day for a nine-year-old. And my father was like, “Where the hell are you getting all this money from?”

I used to stay in a complex that had around 400 families, so it was all friends who were actually renting it out from me, but it did really well till the time the PC revolution came in. Everyone got a PC in their house and started playing video games on PC and somewhere the 8-bit revolution kind of died out after that and also so did my interest. I completely skipped the entire PC revolution and kind of focused on computer science. My first job was actually in cricket, like every other Indian. So I have always worked in sports management all my life. And then somewhere around 2012, I revisited the idea of video games when I got introduced to League of Legends, when I was working for Red Bull. And then I realized that video games have become competitive and it's like any other sport. So very early 2012 while I was working in mainstream sport, working in cricket, working in football, hockey, I'd made up my mind that when the Indian market is ready or when I feel that the size of the market is ready for turning this into a sport, I will be the first person to actually jump and make that shift. And God's been kind. I think I got an opportunity with Riot Games and through Riot Games I moved to Fnatic. And here I am, I would say I'm the first generation of sports marketing person in India who actually made the shift to esports, not just physically, but also mentally, way back in 2012. So it's like a decade in the making in a way, but when the mobile revolution happened, it was much easier for me because I'd already made up my mind that this is sport and this is only gonna get bigger. So for me, the transition was much easier than a lot of my other colleagues right now.

Tom Leonard 

What are the similarities between traditional sport in your part of the world and esports? And what are some of the differences?

FnaticNemo

There is massive love for the game, which means it has a massive fan base. A massive fan base also shows in terms of viewership numbers. So for any sport to be successful, you need to have people play the sport a lot and also watch the sport. These two components are extremely important for making a very commercially viable sport product, whether it's in the U S. or elsewhere in the world. For example with basketball, the number of people who play basketball and the number of people who watch basketball are not the same, but it's still a huge number. And that's why the sport is extremely successful, because you not only have people who want to watch it, but you also have people who play it on a regular basis. And then that kind of feeds into each other. So that is extremely crucial. And that is existing in India because of the fact that we have one very popular game, which is BGMI, which is PUBG Mobile basically. And then we have the viewership and we have the number of people who play it as well. So these two factors are extremely crucial and similar in terms of the sport.

The second part of course is the emotional side of it. I think for any sport to be successful, not just as a sport, but also commercially, you need to have people who are extremely loyal and extremely interested in the outcome of the competitive side of the sport. Which means if my team wins, I am really, really happy. If my team loses, I'm extremely sad, I'm extremely angry, I'm looking forward to making a comeback.

There is revenge, there are all sorts of emotions that are extremely important for sport and those exist in esports as well. So these two factors I think are the most common factors. Of course the playgrounds are extremely different. The way people play the sport is very different. But these two factors are extremely common. The major difference that I see between traditional sport and esports is just the opportunity for esports to be activated from anywhere.

For any other sport, the physicality of the sport also comes with its own limitations in terms of how to play, when to play, what season I can play, especially with the outdoor sports. With indoor sports, it's much better. It's okay, you can always play across the year, but even then, because it's such a physical aspect, there are quite a lot of factors that come into play. Whereas with esport, I think that is currently not explored to that level. So we feel that it's a 24-7, 365 day of the year kind of a sport, right? There is no restriction. There's no physical restrictions of when I can execute the sport. And I think that is a major plus point also. But it is also one of the major differences between mainstream sports and esport.

Tom Leonard 

Yeah, I think it's always interesting to make the comparisons there because everyone's familiar with traditional sports. Not everyone's familiar yet with esports. Let me talk a little bit about sponsorship because that's one of your strengths. Sponsorship and partnerships out there. Can you talk maybe a little bit about what's the role of sponsorship in esports?

FnaticNemo

The biggest role of course is the commercial angle. Sponsorship is extremely crucial for the success of esports purely because it obviously brings in the required monies to run the entire ecosystem. So whether it's the teams, whether it's the publisher, whether it's the players, they all depend on revenue that comes from sponsorship to actually turn this into a viable career and a viable source of living for people who are involved in this industry. But the other important aspect that sponsorship plays is the actual promotion of the game itself right when big brands get involved with these sports you know they don't only give in the monies but they're also kind of validating the fact that this is a sport and they are they're kind of presenting this to their customers.

Basically it is an important factor where it just validates the larger ecosystem and the larger industry. So I feel that sponsorship plays two important roles. One is the money aspect, and the second is the perception aspect. Way back in the day, a lot of brands that invested money in esports were traditional or endemic brands, like people who were either making the hardware or the software. But when brands like automobiles or insurance companies or beverage companies or apparel companies, when they started investing money in esports, it started validating the fact that this industry is not only about people who make equipment for this industry, but this is like any other sport. This is a way for you to reach out to a larger consumer and also bring in opportunities to engage with them or even market your products or sell your product as well. And I think that's where the world really opened up for us.

Tom Leonard 

It reminds me of talking to, I believe, a Sadiq in Africa, at one of his early events. What he was able to do was he got Coca-Cola to sponsor it and they gave him no money.

But he was able to use the Coca-Cola brand at his event. And it just gave him so much more credibility that people didn't know that maybe Coca-Cola wasn't paying him anything. 

FnaticNemo

Yeah, absolutely. We do that. We still do that. I mean, we still do that so much with some big brands who we feel need to be educated and they need to experiment and they need to understand what is the kind of returns that they can actually get with a sport like this. I work with major partners where they don't pay a lot of money right now, but they bring in the media value, they bring in the social reach.

They bring in the assets of consumers to the table and they help us grow the pie. And they come back the next season and they're willing to spend a little bit more. It is all about presenting the product in a manner where it will eventually reach its potential. The NBA was not the NBA a few years back. It took some time for it to come to that level, but they had to prove that they can create an ecosystem where people will pay in. I don't know what the ticket prices are now, but I think upwards of five, say $600 for you to get a good ticket to watch an NBA game. Similarly, sales wise, when you have the likes of Budweiser or the likes of Hannigan sponsoring any of the NBA teams or wanting to be in the stadiums, the belief is that people will buy the beers – helping them sell their stuff. Now it's reached that level where you don't need to prove the concept anymore. Now it's about really expanding and being creative with the concept. And I think if the NBA took 20 years to get or say the last 25 years of the NBA is really where the actual commercial boom happened with the NBA, esports is currently maybe five years old, technically, if you actually go to see. So imagine how this could look like in 2040 or 2045! I always say this to everyone that we are not the generation of esports consumers. The generation of eSports consumers is currently in the age category of 8 to 12 years old. These are the kids who are actually growing up with the idea of the internet. They are the ones who are growing up with something like an NBA and an LCS parallel to each other. And when they grow up and when they get into the consumer spending category of 18 to 24 years old, they will weigh the NBA and esports pretty much in the same category. And that's where you'll actually see the massive boom. So if you think the boom is right now, wait for another five years or 10 years and these numbers will only grow and the space is only going to get bigger.

Tom Leonard 

One of the things I like hearing you talk about is the long-term. Because so many people are just thinking about the next deal.

And it's like most people who are really successful are thinking about it in the long term. Can you talk a little bit about who are the big sponsors of esports in your part of the world?

FnaticNemo

In our part of the world, there are quite a few brands who have taken this very seriously. We are quite a young country. I think we are one of the youngest countries in the world right now, with an average population under 24, which obviously helps a lot because, while we have a billion people in our country, the reality is that our spending power is somewhere around 200 to 250 million people who really have a decent amount of money in their household to actually spend. It's still like putting half of Europe together when it comes to the population. So we have the numbers for sure. The guys who are spending money right now, a lot of the finance companies have realized that the next set of consumers or the next set, the next generation of consumers need to be spoken with a different language. So the likes of MasterCard and Visa while they're still catering to the middle-aged working audiences, some of the new fintech companies or new NBFCs have started talking to the gamers in a very different language because they realized that these are the guys who are going to be the next in line to either take any of the financial products, whether it's savings, credit cards or loans. So they are the ones investing quite heavily within the space of the beverage companies continue to invest because the beverages have always been marketed to the younger audience, not the beer category, but the soft drink or the energy drink category has always been a part of this space. Surprisingly, a lot of automobiles and a lot of transportation companies, whether it's the likes of Hyundai or Honda or some of the car companies or some of the two-wheeler companies and also the new age EVs, which are electric vehicles. Very, very interested in this space because they're talking to a much younger audience who also want to kind of be more, kind of be more aware of what they are doing to the planet. So there's like a synergy there as well. So these companies are investing quite a lot of money as well. And then the traditional computer companies of phone or handset mobile manufacturers are the ones. So these are some of the biggest ones that are spending money in India right now.

Tom Leonard 

Who would you say is the most surprising sponsor that you've come across? You thought, “Wow! I never thought this organization would be spending money in esports!”

FnaticNemo 

Thank you.

FnaticNemo

The most surprising one that I've seen, and I would really like to see a lot more of this, is a few quantum companies. It was, according to me, a very strategic fit. I think it's extremely important to have a dialogue with younger people about, and especially in markets like India, even whether it's Southern Africa or Northern Africa, especially in countries where you know, sex education or just lack of sex education is a problem. And if you look at it from that angle, and if somebody who obviously is a manufacturer of condoms and talks about safe sex and just in general wants to educate people about it, yeah, I think it's really, really brilliant. You know, if you've done it the right way, right? You're talking to the right generation who obviously are going out there and, you know, experimenting a lot more than what they were before when it comes to their sex life, you know, and why not? Like, why not have somebody who is basically built with the product to have safe sex and talk about it and talk to this generation in the language that they understand? I was actually, it's very, very bold, but I was very surprised to see that, but I was also very happy because I think it just opens up the conversation so much more better because it is at the need of the hour. And as a company, if you do it the right way, it will not only benefit you from a marketing perspective, but you are actually doing a favor to the next generation by kind of making this whole idea of talking about it in a more non formal, non conservative way.

Tom Leonard 

I've never heard that before, but as you describe it, it makes a whole lot of sense for all kinds of reasons. I think that, yeah, I think you're onto something there.

FnaticNemo

Thank you.

Tom Leonard 

In a lot of parts of the world, sponsors are normally handled by agencies. So if you are out there looking for a sponsor, should you be working with agencies or should you be trying to talk to the sponsor directly?

FnaticNemo

I think it really depends on market to market in certain markets. Of course, you know the agencies play a much bigger role and as all markets are evolving and businesses are starting to kind of consolidate, you know, we realize that you could be a big agency in one market and then you kind of dictate what happens in other markets as well. And especially in markets like India or again, Northern Africa or Southeast Asia a lot of the mandate actually comes from some of the big brands who are sitting in the US with the kind of media agency that they work with and then the business kind of gets transferred to either the APAC region or the MENA region. So working with agencies is something that you will have to continue doing, whether you like it or not. The approach obviously depends on educating, right? I think sometimes what happens is a lot of time gets not wasted, but a lot of time goes into explaining to the agencies or to the media agencies about why they should be doing esports. Because for them, remember, this is just another platform where the brand has to spend money. They have 50 other proposals that they have on their table. They have music concerts. They have other sporting events. They have GC events. They have television or movies. So for them to evaluate esports, it has to be something that also needs to come from their client as well. So a lot of times a combination of client and agency can also work really well. But in my part of the world, we prefer working with the clients directly, at least when it comes to the direction or when it comes to the brief in terms of what they're trying to achieve. Then post that if they put us onto the agency to get more information or to convince their expense because the agencies are the ones who sometimes have the money because they run the media for the brand then we do that job as well but ideally the direction of what they want to do and how they want to do should come from the brand.

Tom Leonard 

Can you talk a little bit about one of the things I think is fascinating about your background in particular is that the caliber, the level of organizations that you've worked with is really, really good. I mean, when you talk about Riot, you're talking about Red Bull, you're talking about Fnatic. I mean, these are top companies. Could you maybe describe a little bit about the top companies like that? Do they approach things differently than maybe some people that aren't at that level?

FnaticNemo

Yeah, I'm gonna say it's quite interesting that you asked that because, you know, you mentioned a few minutes back about the fact that you like the fact that I talk about a long term approach. And I think that's the one from all these companies, right? Especially Red Bull a lot more than Red Bull and Rive, I would say, even Fnatic for that matter. I was very, very lucky and fortunate to work in an environment where people did not speak about what needs to be done today.

You know, they always spoke about what we've done like five years down the line, three years down the line, 10 years down the line. And it really opened up my eyes to the idea that, yeah, it's good to work for today because you're always working from paycheck to paycheck. But the reality is that you can only build legacy or you can only build relevance when you're able to really look beyond a certain horizon. And I think that's been my biggest plus point working for these brands. is Their look or their approach is at least while they continue doing what they're doing today for the today's consumer, they are always looking at how the consumer is gonna be five years down the line, 10 years down the line, and building strategies for that and kind of building the required, you know, defense mechanism or basically building the required ammunition to actually handle that. Like I know everyone talks about millennials and Gen Z.

I was first introduced to the terminology of Gen Alpha when I was in Red Bull. And I said, what the hell is Gen Alpha? Because I've never heard that. But Gen Alpha is basically somebody who's 10 years old today, between the age of 10 and 14. And we would do seminars and brainstorming sessions of saying, OK, how does today's 14-year-old behave when he turns 18 or when he turns 20, which is six years down the line? And you are having a workshop today.

to figure out how your consumer's gonna be six years down the line, which means you're forced to not think about what your company would look like or how they would diversify six years down the line. And I think that is the difference when you work for big companies versus when you're working for people who are very short-sighted or are looking for today versus somebody who's building not just the legacy, but they're building the business for tomorrow.

Tom Leonard 

I will always be a big supporter of long term things. And it's easier said than done. It's really easy to say, oh, you need to be thinking long term.

But just like you're describing, the way that they approach doing that and institutionalize it makes a big difference. Could you also talk about one of the things I'm really fascinated about, particularly you being in India and there's, there's so many different languages in India and just in general, from a cultural standpoint, is it, how does culture impact? I was going to say it does have a cultural impact, but of course it does. How does culture impact sponsorships in your part of the world?

FnaticNemo

It does impact in a big way because you know culture defines processes and culture then also defines day-to-day processes, day-to-day habits or just approach right. So when you come from a country where things are very chaotic and people like to work in a chaotic environment a lot of stuff is done last minute which means a lot of deals are also done last minute.

Indians like to wait and look at options before they decide. So a lot of times you see that you've done everything right, you've convinced the sponsor, you've shown him exactly the kind of value he needs, but even then he will still wait till the last minute thinking he might get another deal, or he might get some kind of a discount, or he might be able to squeeze in a little bit more from you if required. And that's cultural. That's got nothing to do with work and nothing to do with a process; it's just culturally that's how we program. So culture does play a huge role in sponsorship. We are also very seasonal, which means we believe a lot in festivity. So a lot of our spending, a lot of the way people plan their marketing calendars is replicated with what happens in the country. With the US having a lot of holidays, there is obviously maybe some kind of a campaign during 4th of July, which is obviously your Independence Day, Christmas is big, Thanksgiving is big, but not a lot beyond that, right? I mean, say these are like four or five holidays, maybe Halloween to a certain level. In India, there's a holiday every month, you know. So a lot of the cultural nuances of celebrations also get into marketing campaigns and sponsorship. So you need to also be smart with your money.

“Do I spend more money on Diwali? Or do I spend more money on Christmas? Or do I spend more money on Ganesh?” So these are all the things that play a huge role in how sponsorship is defined in this country.

Tom Leonard 

I remember living in Fiji for a couple of years and Diwali was a big event in that country that of course I had never heard of before then. Can you talk a little bit about what it is that sponsors are looking for? How do they measure success in sponsorship with esports?

FnaticNemo

Well, I think right now in the current market, it is still driven a lot with perception and FOMO, so fear of missing out. So a lot of the sponsorship that is still happening in the world of esports right now is, oh, if I don't do it, my competitor will do it, or I need to do something in gaming. So they are like coming in and they're trying to put in the money. Very few brands really understand what they really want back from, from gaming.

The guys who understand what they want back from video games are very clear. They are looking to engage with an audience that potentially cannot be reached through traditional forms of advertising. So these guys are not watching TV, they are not watching billboards, they are not watching newspapers, they are not reading newspapers or radio. They are completely, they are putting ad blocks on their social media. So these guys are the ones who are completely alienating themselves from any kind of content consumption and only consuming what they want to, but they're also playing video games. So that's why this is a place where you're trying to identify or relate to a consumer that's very hard to kind of talk to on a regular basis. So brands have identified that. So engagement is a big criteria for some of the big sponsors. And then the other one of course is, trying to build the next generation of marketing or the next generation of communication. Like there was a time when Pepsi was spending a lot of money with the NFL. And the Super Bowl, of course, they did it again this year. But they're doing it to stay relevant. They're doing it because they realized that the audience is, I would say Pepsi would possibly realize eventually if they spend like 10% of the money they spend on the Super Bowl and eSports, they'll probably get the same audience. But I think Pepsi does it for much bigger reasons. It's also more about prestige and about ego when it comes to the Super Bowl. But a lot of these brands have also realized that they need to start talking to the next generation of consumers and it will start talking to them today because you grew up with Pepsi, I grew up with Pepsi or Coke, right? The younger generation is much healthier or they're at least aware of their health or they're aware of what a Pepsi or a Coke can do in terms of damage to them. So if these guys don't relate to them today or don't talk to them today, the next 40 years for Pepsi or Coke will look really bad because if people stop drinking Coke and Pepsi, you know, so they need to start talking to them today. And I think that's the reason some of the guys are doing it because they need to talk to the next generation of customers.

Tom Leonard

When we were talking to a guy from the Doctors Without Borders, the huge nonprofit that's doing really amazing work around the world. And one of the things he was saying is one of the reasons that Doctors Without Borders wants to talk to eSports fans. He says, not because they're big givers. If anything, they're the least productive givers. But if they can get them to start giving at their age, the entire lifespan of giving is so much, instead of finding someone in their 50s and convincing them to spend a lot of money, get someone in their 20s to start spending a little bit of money and then over their lifespan. So it's just exactly the kind of thing you're talking about.

FnaticNemo

Yeah.

Tom Leonard

Can we, I also want to talk about from the other side, if someone is looking for a sponsor, which we have a lot of people listening to these podcasts that are like, yeah, tell me, tell me how, tell me how. Could you give some ideas on what's the best approach to getting a sponsor if you're out there looking? I guess it kind of goes on different levels. It's like, how do you identify and then how do you land them?

FnaticNemo 

Okay. I think to identify a sponsor, I think the most important thing is you need to be very clear about your own product first. I meet a lot of people who want to get a sponsor on board, but when you deep dive into the product or when you deep dive into what they're trying to sell, they're not really clear about what exactly is the proposition that they're trying to sell. So if you're not going to be clear about what you're trying to sell or how you're trying to sell it you already lost the battle doesn't matter. You might be convinced. You might convince somebody to spend money once but he'll never come back again. So the first point is you need to be a complete expert about your own product. You need to understand the product in and out in terms of what it can deliver on what it cannot deliver on so that when you're talking to somebody and you can answer a zillion questions if he has all those questions. Right questions are never bad if somebody is asking you a lot of questions. (QUOTE)

Either he is interested in moving forward or he is just increasing his knowledge, which is both fine. You know, I would rather be in a meeting room where somebody is asking me a lot of questions than be in a meeting room where they have no questions. You know, so that's point number one. Point number two is you need to be honest to yourself in terms of one, what is the kind of money you're looking for? And then scan down literally the categories of guys that you want to talk to. Do like these blind sprays where they just talk to anyone and everyone because they are so desperate to get a sponsor on board not realizing that it's extremely important to create some sort of a saliency or some sort of a understanding of why that partner would look at this particular product and be like oh there's a strategic fit right up there right so creating the strategic fit mentally in your own head and understanding why a sponsor would spend money with you is extremely important.

So don't go out there and look desperate and talk to everyone. Be very selective about who you think are the best possible partners for your particular product. And first talk to them, stick to them, push them to that category, which a lot of people don't do. And if you do get the meeting, and if you do get an opportunity to actually sit on the table, the way to land it would always be to be prepared to educate because not everyone understands esports. So a lot of handholding needs to be done. It is very frustrating sometimes. It might be done for very little money. But the idea is we are still in a phase where we are onboarding a lot of partners within this industry, which means it's going to take four or five years or four or five attempts for these guys to actually pull out the big money. So that's OK. (VIDEO)

If somebody wants to spend less money and he's taking a lot of time from you, do it. Do the hard work today so your future can be better.

Tom Leonard 

Yeah, it also goes back to the long-term approach. Someone was saying that the best time to get a sponsor is when you don't need a sponsor. It's like, you know, you know.

Be thinking long-term, not like, oh, I've got to have someone for next week. Can you talk a little bit about, let's say if you landed a sponsor and how do you maintain that relationship? Because I thought one of the things you just said was really good, you might have them for one time, but they're not going to come back. How do you keep them coming back?

FnaticNemo 

I think that's more personal. I think everyone has a different style. I think for me, honestly, a lot of the people that I work with, they become very close friends already. So a lot of them look at me or look at Nodwin as a potential partner to service them over and above the sponsor as well. So like a lot of times we give away, at least I give away a lot of information for free. I give away a lot of services for free sometimes as well. But that's because the relationship is more like you would with your friend. It's like when you have a friend, what do you do? You always look at the best interest of your friend, right? When a friend tells you, I'm going to buy this car, and if you genuinely think that this car is shit, you're not going to tell him to buy that car, right? You're going to be honest to him. You're going to be like, “Hey, listen, I know you like this car, but this is the problem with this car, and I think you should look at this option.” Or the same way, if he's buying a really good car, and even though you are jealous about the fact that he can afford that car, you're not going to be like, don't buy the car. You're going to be like, “Hey, I really am very happy for you.” It's the same concept with the partner. You be yourself. I mean, you be honest. If he's doing something stupid, you call that out. If he's done something nice, you call that out. You are what partners are looking for or what sponsors are looking for, and that is a true custodian of a particular genre like in the world of video games, he should be able to trust you with everything. That you're not going to put money before anything, but you're going to put the actual relationship or the value of the relationship before everything. Which means if he's doing something wrong, you will call it out. You're not going to be like, oh, because you're the client and because you decided it, you'll take ownership for things that go wrong and you will celebrate the victories with him. If you're able to do that, I think it's very easy to keep a sponsor.

Remember at the end of the day, sponsors are not like some aliens. They're also humans on the other side. That's one thing I always tell everyone. While it's two brands doing business, it's the two humans who are doing business together, right? So a lot of sponsorship management is just human management. And if you just treat another human with the kind of respect and kindness that you do for your own friends and family, nine out of ten times you're going to be fine.

Tom Leonard 

What a great way to look at it, because that's really true. It's like that. It is a person to person business, even though you may not think of it that way from the outside. How important are metrics? How important are numbers to sponsors? Do they want to see numbers?

FnaticNemo

Yep.

FnaticNemo

It's very, very important. I think it's getting more and more important. I think the whole world is turning into data and looking at data very, very closely. Also, because we never had this kind of information before. Previously, when people did sponsorships in the 80s and the 90s, everything was done manually. It was more perception driven. I remember what people used to do. So, for example, if you're Coke and you're sponsoring a big event.

And if you are the VP of Coke and you're driving, say from Los Angeles to, I don't know, Las Vegas, I would probably buy billboards on that road so that you get to see it. And then you feel that, hey, my team is doing their job because I could see the billboard. So it was always to keep the right people happy, right? In today's world, it's not like that, because in today's world, it's like, it's all over the place, the information's everywhere. And if you do one major mess or one major screw up, it gets called out very, very quickly. So that's why data has become more and more important because that's the only way to measure stuff now. So brands definitely look at that and we look at that very, very closely as well. I think some, there needs to be a very good mix of data and I believe in intuition a lot. So a lot of times data can confuse you.

So when I present data to clients, one is I have to be extremely sure of the numbers myself, but they need to be presented in a manner that it rationalizes certain decisions or it helps you to decide something. Data without any decision-making capability is just a whole crap of numbers and doesn't make any sense to anyone. So if I get people who present data to me and I'm like, okay, so what's the conclusion of this data? What direction should you take or what is your recommendation after looking at this data? That is more important than data actually. So the way I present data to clients is that a whole lot of numbers are good, but this is what my study of those numbers is inclining us to do. Either we do this or we do this, or we plan to do something like this, because that's the impact that it's gonna bring. I think that's what clients are looking for. So when somebody says, please present the data to me, he doesn't want you to show him the Excel sheet. He wants him to show him that you studied the Excel sheet and now you're giving him a direction that he doesn't want to do himself to be honest.

Tom Leonard

Exactly, exactly. Yeah, make the numbers tell a story. It's the best approach. And also what I found is like, especially in direct marketing, testing things is really important. But I always tell people when I work with them, it's like, don't test things. Don't ever test anything that you can't do something with the results. Be able to prove something and then take those results and do something with them. The thing I like to do, when you're talking about billboards, when I worked at Warner Brothers, we would buy radio spots on public radio in West LA, because we knew that the top execs from the company were always traveling from the West side over to Burbank in the morning. And there's a really good chance they're listening to NPR.

Tom Leonard

And if they hear about our projects, it makes us all like we're everywhere when we were only in one little spot. Last thing I want to talk about here in a little bit in detail is mobile, because one of the things that certainly here in the U.S. we lose sight of is what a big deal mobile esports is to the rest of the world. Could you talk a little bit about how big mobile is in your part of the world and how it impacts sponsorship?

FnaticNemo

Yeah.

FnaticNemo

I would say mobile is everything. For a market like India, we're looking at, per the last number that I saw, around 450 million smartphones, which means technically every single person is a mobile phone user in India, and that itself is a huge number. Now, with the games and the AAA games now being modified and released on mobile phones, has really enhanced the experience of how people play video games. You know, back in the day, mobile phones or mobile phone games were not that attractive because they didn't have the kind of depth of the graphics or the storytelling ability that a console and a PC had. But that has changed drastically in the last five years, which means more and more people have access to playing these on their mobile phones. I also feel like it's important to acknowledge that mobile phones are becoming more and more a medium for people to get into and introduce themselves into the world of video games.

So it's also a huge sampling activity. And then a lot of them actually then eventually migrate to play console or play PC, if they're serious about playing video games. So it is a very big deal in India. I think for us, we are a mobile first market. And I think we'll continue to be a mobile first market for as long as we exist, to be very honest. But mobile esports has also given the opportunity for PC, esports or PC sales and console sales to actually drastically go up as well. So the more people play on mobile phones, the more they get introduced to the idea of video games, the more they will go back and buy a PC and a console as well. And that's brilliant to see, because eventually what's gonna happen is, specifically for esports or for certain video games, the platform that is played on is not going to be important anymore because a platform is going to be an input device. Now whether the input device is a mobile phone or whether it's a PC or whether it's a console is not going to be relevant, I would say 10 years down the line. Which means everything is going to be cross platform. I would look, I think Riot's already working on it. You know, where I could literally continue my game while I'm playing on the PC, I can continue the same game on a mobile phone if I had to just leave the room. Which I think will change the game drastically for everyone. 

The advantage of mobile force, of course, is also that it has massive reach. It has an insane amount of connectivity. So which means if I want to if I want to interact with you as a gamer and if you're a PC gamer or a console gamer, I have to wait for you to come on to a PC or come on to a console for me to communicate with you in some kind of notification or some kind of call to action. But if you're a mobile phone gamer,

you're always carrying a mobile phone with you. So I could send you notifications and communicate with you pretty much 24/7 because you are carrying your phone with you wherever you're going. And I think that the opportunity to engage with a mobile phone is so much higher than the console and the PC. I think that is where brands have seen the huge difference because they're like, I can engage with the mobile esports guy on much higher than a PC or a console game. And that's why the big sponsorship money is coming in mobile esports right now. And I hope that continues to grow for the next few years.

Tom Leonard

Do you think that the amount of money, let's say if you're a sponsor and you're going to sponsor an event that's a mobile event versus a PC event, are you going to spend less money because it's mobile or is it pretty comparable?

FnaticNemo 

It depends on the market, right? Mobile is going to give you the reach and mobile is going to give you the numbers. So in principle, mobile will be more expensive than PC in certain markets. But remember, PC is also the pinnacle of sport from an esport perspective as well, which means, PC is also going to give you experience, it's going to give you the stadium-like feel, it's going to give you the fans. And it's there for you to see. Counter-Strike is an example,  presented the right way.

Complete PC game, filling up stadiums, if presented the right way, makes the same amount of money as PUBG Mobile or League of Legends, which is a PC game, and that attracts all kinds of sponsors. So it also depends on how you present the entire package, but PC esports does have the opportunity to create the required, I would say not just the look and feel, but also the consumer experience that brands are willing to pay a premium for. But mobile eSports has the numbers. So it really depends on which side of the table that you're sitting as a brand. What is more important for you is determining what is necessary: premiumness, perception or consumer experience. Depending on that, you will decide whether it's PC or console for you or mobile for you.

And what's interesting about that is the sponsor is going to be more familiar with the mobile audience in certain parts of the world than they are because they're already used to reaching people through that medium. So it's not like you're not trying to get them to shift to something that they're unfamiliar with.

Tom Leonard

What's the connectivity like in India? I always hear that the internet is really, really good in India.

FnaticNemo 

The internet is brilliant now. I think we are one of the cheapest data countries in the world. I think we've got around three or four network providers that are currently providing us with 5G services already. I pay around $15 a month for unlimited internet.

Yeah. That is $15 a month for unlimited internet on my phone and I pay the same in my house for my Fiber connection.

Tom Leonard

Wow, because here I paid four times that for the promotional period for a year and then they jack it up to who knows what it is afterwards. So, really, really good science. 

Tom Leonard

Getting late there, but to talk about sponsorship because sponsorship is something that we cannot talk about too much because it's always great to hear from people who have so much experience like you do in the industry to hear your take on things. Where can people find out more about what it is that you're doing?

FnaticNemo

You can follow me on Instagram. My Instagram handle is @fnatic_nemo. I pretty much post most of my stuff on Instagram. Or you can follow me on LinkedIn. That's where pretty much I post everything that we do. But I would like to take the opportunity to say that India is a great market and a great country. If you're ever deciding to visit this country, it obviously has a lot to offer to everyone not just from a work perspective, but from a cultural experience perspective as well. It's a beautiful place and like any other country, we would love to host people and host big tournaments one day. And that's what I've been aiming for. I think we've been working very closely with quite a few publishers to bring in some big tournaments to India. And we've been successful in the past. And I hope that in the next few years, we become a very strong esports hub and a very important part of this larger ecosystem.

Tom Leonard 

There's no reason that you cannot be just that. We do not talk politics here, but your leader was just here in the US over the past few weeks. Great press. India just got on so many people's radar. So that was a great PR win for the country.

Okay, so again, thanks everyone for listening to the Gamers Change Lives podcast! Play Games, Create jobs, Change Lives! Thanks again, Nimish.

FnaticNemo

Yep! Thank you so much for having me, and hopefully I'll be able to hear this soon on the platform and I hope people like it as well.

Tom Leonard

Sure. Thanks.